Bread Troubleshooting – Bread That Rises and Then Falls
Last Updated on August 10, 2024 – Originally Posted in October 2011
Picture this, the bread machine signals that the bread is done. The bread smells great. You peeked in earlier and everything was going well. Then you open the lid and discover that the bread has fallen or collapsed.
Talk about disappointing!
I call this The Big Valley, because of the sunken area in the middle of the loaf. Sadly, it happens to all of us at one time or another.
Here are some ideas about what may cause your bread to collapse as well as fixes.
While this website is about making bread with a bread machine, these tips and hints will work with any method of making bread.
Bread that Falls or Collapses Can Be Caused By:
Too much liquid – Try decreasing water or milk by one to two tablespoons. Remember to look at your dough after a few minutes of kneading and see if it’s a smooth, round ball. If the dough is too dry add liquid a teaspoon at a time until the dough balls up. If it looks too wet, add flour a tablespoon at a time until it looks as expected.
Note that high humidity can add unwanted liquid to a recipe.
Not enough salt – Try increasing the salt by ¼ teaspoon.
Not enough flour – Try increasing the flour by one to two tablespoons.
Flour – The flour might not the right type. I use bread flour for the best results.
The age of the flour is also important. The older the flour the smaller the rise. I’ve used bread flour was approaching its “best by” date and was surprised to find that the bread rise was significantly lower than fresh flour.
Check out this article on flour for more information about different types of flour.
Vital Wheat Gluten – Recipes with low-protein flours, like whole wheat or rye, typically call for the addition of vital wheat gluten. It improves the elasticity and rise of the dough. See my article on vital wheat gluten for more information about that.
Too much yeast—While it seems counterintuitive, too much yeast can actually cause your bread to collapse. The yeast will make the bread rise like crazy, but later it all falls in on itself. Try decreasing yeast by ¼ to ½ teaspoon.
Yeast Type or Condition – The yeast might have been old or might have been the wrong type for the setting. I’ve got an article on yeast that will help.
Water – It’s rare, but sometimes your water could be the issue. Click through to read about what happened to me.
More Hints for Fixing the Problem
As a first step, try making the bread again.
Maybe you accidentally measured something wrong or forgot an ingredient. I’ve forgotten the yeast, the bread machine paddles and lost count of how many teaspoons of salt I’ve added.
Again, it’s really important to look at the dough after a few minutes of kneading. Here’s what it should look like:
Smooth, round ball of dough
If you made the recipe correctly, the next step is to try it again, making just one or two changes. Also, make notes about the changes. How did you vary the recipe? What was the result?
Use your revised recipe as the new baseline. Look at the result, look at the variables and try again if needed.
For example, maybe you adjusted the yeast and didn’t notice enough of a change? No problem. On the next loaf make you can try an additional change to the yeast or maybe a change to the salt.
Here’s a slightly different issue.
What if your bread doesn’t rise at all? We’re talking bread brick! As you can see, it’s happened to me. I’ve got hints that will help.
I’ve been baking bread and other baked goods since the earth cooled. I’ve recently learned what is a universal truth about flour and liquid.
‘The basic all-purpose/bread flour to liquid ratio is 2 1/2 to 3 cups flour to 1 ¼ -1 ½ cups liquid, (296 grams- liquid- 355 grams’
I was having epic fails in my very first, new bread machine. Baking bread by hand you learn to ‘feel’ when the dough needs more flour or liquid. With the bread machine, most of the ingredients were added all at once and looks could be deceiving. Now that I’ve learned the magic ratio, I quickly add up ALL the liquids in a recipe before I try it to make sure I had it with the parameters of the ratio.
Eggs can be a huge problem as the amount of liquid increased by using Jumbo verses large eggs is HUGE. One also needs to add oil, melted butter, applesauce, honey, molasses and a host of other things into this equation.
I made an oatmeal bread that was much like the Grand Canyon. I used Jumbo eggs, melted butter and honey among other things with wild abandon as I tried this new recipe. After the epic fail I calculated the ‘liquids’ and it was waaaay over the amount of liquid the requisite flour could absorb.
I’m also weighing liquids as it’s easier to see the digital display on the scale than the graduated markings on a measuring cup. You know the drill of bending down to eye level with the cup to see if it’s really 1/2 cup or raising the cup to eye level and trying to read the wigging water.
I make copious notes in a notebook on my breadmaking, preview and calculate liquids BEFORE starting a new recipe and now I have better control of the process. Do I still need to eyeball the dough and add a little flour here or liquid there? Absolutely, but it’s smaller amounts and less frequently.
Happy Baking
Thanks so much for this!!
Hi, I don’t understand the figures above -(296 grams – liquid – 355 grams.
Which is the liquid/flour?
Many thanks
Great explanation,thank you so much!
I just discovered your site and am really thankful you demystified the types of yeast and how to convert between them as I was always confused as to which one I should use and how much. I also have been having issues with my bread collapsing so followed your advice and reduced the amount of water and yeast in my recipe.
I’m wondering, though, can I use active dry yeast directly out of the refrigerator or should I let it come to room temperature first before adding?
That’s a great question! It depends on your bread machine. My Zo has a preheat/rest cycle that brings everything up to temperature. So with my machine, I can go from the bread machine to the bread pan. I’d advise you to follow the instructions that come with your machine.
Hello, I have an Oster machine that I’ve had and used for around 22 years. I never had trouble until a month or so ago and now my breads all end up with the Big Valley. They taste good but look awful. I am very careful with my measurements and the temperature of the water. I noticed yesterday that my machine does not feel as hot as it used to while in the bake cycle. Could my machine just be getting old and causing the bread to crater like that? Thank you for your help!!
I’m so sorry to hear this. 22 years is a long time so it might be that your machine is getting old. You might try making milk bread to make sure it isn’t your water. I’d also try a bread mix to rule out issues with any of your ingredients.
I appreciate the article and the comments. I am highly impressed that you still keep up with it! I make both gluten loaves and gluten free loaves in my bread machines. I’ve not had any issues except that the loaves are not sturdy enough once sliced to use for sandwiches.(I enjoy open faced sandwiches just fine though.)
However, my last gluten free loaf has a big valley and while it is a very tasty loaf and therefore I intend to tweak the recipe again, I was curious how I could prevent it using the current recipe. I’ve been reading the comments and while I cannot add any gluten to my gluten free loaves, vital or not, I was hoping I might find a different idea.
I used almond flour for a third of the flour called for. The only difference I can see that this makes is that my Xanthan gum, potato starch and tapioca starch were reduced by one third. Also though, I doubled my honey and my apple cider vinegar and used garlic infused olive oil instead of plain EVOO. Further, it wasn’t a bread machine recipe and so I followed the instructions to heat up my milk.
According to the comments here, I am going to try weighing my yeast(I previously only weighed the flour), reducing the temperature of my milk to lukewarm, and increasing the flour by 2 TBSP(once I figure out how many grams that is). My only question is whether or not the amount of baking powder could have any effect on the rise (and fall) of my loaf? Although I highly suspect that the added apple cider vinegar and honey had something to do with it.
I am definitely going to tweak your recipes for gluten free loaves. Thanks so much!
Thanks so much for this insight into gluten-free baking. There’s a lot going on with gluten-free bread so I’m not even going to speculate about the baking powder situation. Thanks again!!
Hi,Marsha. I also face the Big Valley problem in my bread. I bake my bread using a mixture of bread flour and wholemeal flour in a bread maker. I also add in additional ingredients such as ground almonds, raisins, dried cranberries and sunflower seeds. Can the additional ingredients contribute to the Big Valley problem? Thank you
I would suspect the issue might be the wholemeal flour. You can try adding some vital wheat gluten. That may help.
Dried fruit can soak up extra water in the batter, however the effect there would be to cause a shorter loaf than normal instead of one with a valley in it.
Please help if you can. My bread always seems stale the same evening I make it in my machine. I’m very frustrated with this and just tempted to throw the machine away.
Thank you,
Ken
Interesting! Homemade bread doesn’t keep as long as bread you buy in the store. There’s just no getting around that. However I’ve never heard of it going stale so quickly.
You might try slicing it and freezing it. When you want bread then you just thaw/toast it in the toaster. Here’s more information about that.
this is probably my most frustrating problem. I got a new machine and made a loaf that was so dense it was hard to cut. I found a recipe for 100% whole wheat bread that called for a lot more liquid and uses the white bread setting so I tried it and it was perfect. Soft, good rise, tasty. Second loaf done exactly the same has the big valley. The only difference was a new bag of flour (same brand though) and I go through flour fast enough that it doesn’t have a chance to get old. I also weigh my flour so a bad measure wouldn’t be the issue. The recipe already has a good amount of salt (1.5 tsp) and not a lot of yeast (1.5 tsp).
I’ll try reducing the liquid a little and see what happens.
Good morning! I used a different recipe, but I am having a hard time troubleshooting! My kitchen is WAY too cold for the cooling process, and when I took my beautiful Jalapeno Cheddar loaf out of the oven/dutch oven, it deflated completely. I was SO sad because it was beautiful and perfect up until this point. So my question is, how can I cool down my bread in a cold kitchen nice and slow, so it doesn’t deflate? Can I leave it in the oven (with the oven off) or the dutch oven on top of the stove for some cooldown?? Any and all advice greatly appreciated!
Thanks so much for writing. I only bake loaves of bread in my machine, so I’m just guessing here. I’d try opening your oven door to let it cool down to 200 degrees or so. (Use an oven thermometer.) At that point close the oven door again and see what the bread does. Fingers crossed it will cool down slowly.
Also, I’d adjust your recipe using the tips above. It sounds like you’ve got an air pocket under the crust. It would be better if that were nice, yummy jalapeno cheddar bread. 🙂
Thanks for the advice! I’m going to try again today, so I’ll keep you posted 🙂 One day, I’ll get a bread machine!
Sounds great!
I let it cool in the oven for about 20 minutes, and then the stovetop, and than a cooling rack. I also baked it for about 30 more minutes this go around…. came out great! Thanks for your help 🙂
Yay!! I’m so glad it worked out.
Hi Marsha, I’ve been using my Panasonic SDZB2502WXC for eight years, when I first started I suffered from the ‘Big Valley’ all the time. A friend suggested that as there’d been a poor harvest the year before in the UK, the flour I was using didn’t contain enough gluten. He recommended that I tried Marriages Organic White Flour, which I have used ever since with no problems. However, when I started using my latest batch every loaf collapsed, despite checking my measurements carefully. I concluded that I was suffering from poor flour again and ordered some Canadian flour and new yeast. But again, the top collapsed although not as bad.
At the moment I am at a loss as to what is going wrong. I’ll try again with reduced water, but this is the recipe I have been using for eight years I wondered whether you could shed any light on the problem?
Thanks in advance for any help
Ken..
Interesting! You might try adding some vital wheat gluten.
I’ve just made another loaf and reduced the amount of water by 10ml (0.34 fl oz), and the crust did not collapse. However, it did not rise as much as normal but it tasted good. What I’ll try next is a bit more sugar and a bit more yeast, if that doesn’t get things back to normal I try getting some gluten as you suggest. Although I’m still can’t fathom what has happened to cause a recipe that I’ve successfully used for the past eight years to suddenly fail. Maybe it’s another casualty of climate change!
I have finally baked bread without a valley! I now weigh the water,flour, salt, everything on a digital scale in grams.
I have a new Cuisinart Compact Automatic Bread Maker. I have had repeated problems with Big Valleys. I think I have tried all the suggested changes to the recipe (more salt, less sugar, less yeast) and still have Big Valleys. It seems to me that the automatic timing on the last rise is too long. What if I could figure out when to end that rise and try to adjust the automatic countdown clock to move the procedure on to the bake phase earlier than scheduled?
Gosh, I’m not sure how that would work out. If the machine is programmable you might as well give it a try though.
You also might try a mix. That would eliminate old ingredients from the equation. As a last resort you could try sour milk bread. That eliminates your water as a cause of the issue.
Hi! I have got a new breadmaker and I am not sure what I am doing wrong, probably the yeast, the bread seems to be coming out with a cheesey smell, it’s baking right now and it’s smells cheesey! It did rise nicely and now has sunk again (last loaf was the same). Is it the yeast? Any ideas? Thank you
Interesting! I’ve heard of a cheesy smell from bread, but usually this happens with sourdough bread. What type of bread are you making?
I have an Oster bread machine. I have attempted to make white bread twice and both times have resulted in the “Big Valley.” I am also wondering if my yeast is too cold. I use it right out of the refrigerator. Should I not be doing this? I am a first time bread maker, I have made a few loafs by hand and decided to invest in a bread machine. Any help is greatly appreciated. Thank you!!!
If your bread machine heats all the ingredients before starting to make bread then you should be fine. If your bread machine does NOT preheat the ingredients then try using room temperature liquids in your recipe.
We lve at 6000 ft and i amhaving trouble with the Nutty Low Carb bread I need suggestions
Here are some hints that help with high-altitude bread making.
I’m using a Kenwood BM 200 bread machine. If I use a commercial bread mix such as one from Wright’s Baking it rises well and bakes with a nice round top above the top of the tin in the bread machine. But when I try a wholemeal flour it rises a bit during proving but collapses during baking. I use DCL Instant Yeast.
My most recent try was with 250g Wholemeal Spelt flour, 210g Strong white flour, 40g Gluten, 10ml lemon juice for vitamin C, 10ml yeast powder, 10ml sugar, 5ml salt, 20ml oil, and 350ml water. I set the machine for program #1 which kneads for 33 minutes and rises for a total of 87 minutes (that’s the program with the longest rise time). Before starting the machine I put in all the ingredients and allow it to rest for 30 minutes. By the end of proving the dough had risen really nicely, to about 2cm above the top of the tin in the breadmaker, but during the first 10 minutes of baking the dough collapsed so it was about level with the top of the tin.
Previously I have tried 10% less water (hardly rose at all), only 5ml yeast (did not rise as much but collapsed just the same), no added gluten (less rise but same collapse), no lemon juice (less rise but same collapse). I’ve tried different brands of wholemeal flour. All collapse during baking and none of the changes I’ve tried made any improvement; indeed most changes gave a poorer result. Yet the commercial breadmixes all rise and bake very nicely.
When sliced the loaf shows a gradual increase in the size of the air bubbles towards the top. It tastes OK but generally feels dense.
I note that commercial individual sachets of instant yeast are typically 7g and I measured one of these to be about 13ml, so I am confused as to why the wholemeal bread recipes suggest only 5ml of instant yeast.
Is there something wrong with the DCL Instant yeast?
Should I add anything else to prevent the collapse?
Have you tried my spelt bread recipe or my wheat bread recipe? Those recipes work. They’re not in metric measurements. Sorry! In 2021 I’ll be adding some software to the site that will convert the recipes into metric measurements.
I’m glad that you tested your machine with a mix. Now you know that the machine isn’t the issue.
Have you checked the expiration date on the yeast? It isn’t old is it?
Thank you for all the good tips and recipes. It seems like I am baking more bread now during these horrible time and so glad to have your ideas. I use a bread machine, I guess I am just lazy. One question though, is it ok to store the yeast in the freezer and will it keep it fresher abs longer than just keeping in the cupboard?
I’ve heard that using a bread machine is “cheating”. I don’t believe it though. I think it’s just a different way to make bread.
I store my yeast in the refrigerator. I’ve heard of people storing yeast in the freezer (especially instant yeast) but I haven’t done it.
Hello! I have a Zojirushi BB-CEC 20 machine, which I love. However, I have many recipes that call for the use of the “Sweet” or “French” cycles, neither of which my machine has. Is there a way around this? I am in Canada here, in the Edmonton, Alberta area. Thank you!
Take a look at the home made section of your bread machine manual. Zojirushi gives you a program for a French bread cycle.
I can’t find a program for the sweet bread cycle. As a substitute I’d use the basic cycle with the light crust setting.
Oooh, is Covid making my bread fall?! I’ve been making the same white bread recipe once a week for years. Then of course all the new covid bread makers bought up the yeast and bread flour. I was so excited to find yeast again but my top fell! And I thought the texture of the loaf wasn’t right, but my family insists they haven’t noticed. When it happened the second time I thought it was the new bread flour. But when I bought new and it still happened, I figured it was the new yeast. So I bought a different brand. Still happens! So this has been happening for about 5 weeks. Hearing all you guys, it sounds like maybe bread flour isn’t currently up to snuff? I don’t want to try a whole bunch of experimenting if it’s not something I can control. You think maybe one day it will go back to normal? And I should just keep trying out different brands?
My guess would be that a lot of people are facing challenges because we’re working with ingredients that we’re not familiar with. So hang in there! Keep going on working the issue. Try adjusting the flour, salt or liquid as suggested in this article.
Stores used to carry Bread machine yeast now none do not even Amazon. I only see Rapid rise. So I have no choice but to use the rapid rise. My bread collapses every time. Is there anything I can do? Bread tastes good but it is ugly.
Are you using the same amount of yeast? In my experiments using yeast, those types of yeast are interchangeable.
Thank you for this blog! I am making a low carb bread with vital wheat gluten and oat fiber. There are many similar recipes out there like this. Mine rise really high in my old Bradman machine and proceed to collapse from each side into the middle. I think it’s over proofing. Suggestions? The dough is pretty sticky so I wondered how to take it out of the machine and work with it to fold it and put it back in the machine. Or should I just try reducing the yeast as a first step?
Thanks so much for visiting my site. To be honest, I don’t make or eat low or no carb bread. The ingredients are different and I’m just not sure what would be the best thing to do.
Hi! Like others here, I am starting to have problems with bread from my machine. The last three times I used it have not been succcessful. The first was to make a loaf of white-wheat bread, it fell in the top (my machine is old, and makes the loaves vertically). The second was to make dough for white-wheat dinner rolls, which did not rise properly and were mostly flat, but tasted ok. The third was today, and was to make pizza dough. I must have mis-measured the liquid or the flour, because when it finished the cycle, it was like totally liquid inside. I added flour, kneaded by hand, but the dough did not rise properly and did not taste right. Not bad, just not right. I am willing to think I made measurement errors today, but the other two times not so much.
I use bread flour, store my flour and yest in the refrigerator or freezer once opened, and actually cycle through my stock of flour reasonably quickly. Now, with the pandemic, yeast was hard to find, and I was not able to get the bread machine yeast jars I usually get, and had to switch to the rapid rise yeast, and, at first it worked fine. I have checked all expiration dates, and nothing has expired – BUT, there is one wierd thing. The bag of bread flour I am using now came from the store with a tear in the side of the bag. It seemed like it was clumpy, so I tried sifting it – something I did not normally do, and today also added vital wheat gluten. I really hate the idea of throwing flour out, especially since it is hard to come by at the moment!
Does anyone have any suggestions or thoughts for me? Thanks!
I hate to throw out food, but in this case, I’d throw the flour away. I like to use fresh, good ingredients in my cooking. It sounds like your flour has aged prematurely because of exposure to the air.
I had this problem with 3 loaves just before my Wel-Bilt machine died (RIP Wel-Bilt 1995-2020) and sent the bread pan into orbit. The shaft had broken, and the heating element fractured, so I think it was past it’s due date. My son, out of his graciousness, bought me a new machine from an unknown company (Pohl-Schmitt) for my birthday, so it’s not a total loss! Hopefully the new machine will make delicious bread as well, as I’m tempted to make your delicious sounding sour milk bread. Would buttermilk also work? At any rate, thanks for putting out such a truly useful, and interesting site!
Hi, I’m in the UK I’ve been using a bread maker for years and always used bread maker yeast but because of the pandemic haven’t been able to access any so tried fresh yeast (frozen then thawed) at double the weight of the bread maker yeast, and then high intensity instant yeast at the same rate as the bread maker yeast. Both yeasts have left me with a valley topped loaf. I usually do a rapid cycle 1 hr 55 mins but have tried a 4 hr loaf with the same results. Any suggestions would be very gratefully received.
I’ve recently redone my article on using yeast in the bread machine. It doesn’t address fresh yeast but talks about using other types. Maybe one of those will be available to you.
Hello – Ive been making whole wheat bread very successfully in my bread machine until yesterday when I had what I can only describe as a crater!! I wasn’t sure what happened so I made another loaf with the same result. The only change I made is buying my flour direct from the mill. Could this be the problem – and why would this be. Is there anything I can do that would compensate for the different flour – I have rather a lot to get through!!
Thanks
You might try adding vital wheat gluten.
Hi Caroline – Almost certainly the the flour from the mill, as to why not sure but probably the Gluten content. I’ve always made 100% wholemeal loaves for many years with no problems but with the Cov19 problem had to source flour from local mill, disaster. After a few sunken loves and various changes the only solution was to do 70% wholemeal & 30% strong white flour mix, hope this helps.
Could the use of bleached flour be the culprit in the many loaf collapses we’ve experienced since beginning our evolution in bread baking 2 months ago?
I’d had success years ago using the basic recipes that came with my bread machine manual as well as some creative flavor combinations I’d concocted in the past, but I’d always had trouble using a sourdough starter so we switched to a sourdough bread mix with excellent results.
Now, after many years of buying bread, we are again attempting to bake using a starter and suffering continual loaf collapse, even after adjusting the recipe moisture, yeast, and yeast proofing method. The only thing we can think of is that the bleached bread flour is the problem. The dough is springy and rises beautifully until the end of the second rise, then collapses on itself into the baking process.
Any thoughts or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
I’ve heard that bleached flour and sourdough starter don’t do well together.
We’ve been baking away and found that the bleached bread flour was indeed causing collapse issues with our sourdough.
We have now been reducing the amount of AD yeast by 1/4 tsp each few times we bake and the collapse has reduced to a mere valley. (Recipe initially called for 2 1/4 tsp, and we are down to 1 1/2.)
I’ll reduce the yeast again by another 1/4 tsp with the next loaf and see how it goes; as long as the loaf is rising and falling I know I haven’t reduced the yeast by too much.
We’ve never just baked a small loaf, we’ve had large loaves that fall.
Thank you so much for being there with so many questions and answers that not only help us to learn as we go along, but you’ve helped to build our confidence with bread baking.
We’re thinking of making a loaf or two by hand to see how that goes.
Thank you so much for this trouble-shooting blog! I’ve been reading the questions, suggestions, and results for the past 2 months since we began lockdown and my husband asked me to drag out the old bread machine and “bake up a loaf.” He found a 25-lb sack of bread flour are our local Smart & Final and we’ve been bartering with the neighbors for yeast and baking up a storm but we’ve experienced more loaf-collapse than we’ve ever thought possible.
Thanks to the comments from readers, I believe the issue is with the active dry yeast we obtained from a neighbor, which we’ve been proofing prior to adding to the bread machine. Our first dozen loaves were a “faux” sourdough, which gets it’s “sour” from yogurt and lemon juice. It’s a delicious loaf but it kept falling.
Next, I obtained sourdough starter from a neighbor, and, after several days of feeding, we baked a loaf which collapsed down to about 3″ tall for a 1.5 lb loaf (I learned that there was an error in the ammount of water in the recipe.) We baked another loaf last night and while the moisture ratio was good, we still experienced the big valley in the last 10 min of the 2nd knead and into the baking process. For this loaf, we used a packet of rapid rise yeast I’d found in the back of a grocery shelf, but we still had issues.
We gave that loaf to a neighbor (which they devoured) and are trying again now. This time we are again using the active dry yeast, with room temp water, and we didn’t proof it first. From what I could glean from the remarks on this blog, I believe the yeast was over-proofing which made it fall by the end of the baking time…at least I think.
I don’t know, but I thank you so much for being there to discuss this and help us figure out what went wrong and how to fix it. It’s good to not feel like we’re the only ones out there with such a ridiculous problem in the midst of chaos.
Take care!
Thanks for your comment!
I love sourdough bread, but it can be hard to make in a bread machine. Why? In traditional sourdough, the sourdough acts as the yeast. That sort of setup does not work in a bread machine. Real sourdough bread needs to be made by hand.
However, you can make faux sourdough bread as you’ve indicated. I do that with my sour milk bread recipe.
I have a recipe with 3c whole wheat flour and 2c white flour. I weight everything. This recipe calls for 2t of yeast. I bought dough enchanter for $2x.xx and it requires 2t for a 2 pound loaf. I have a Zojirushi. The bread rised nicely, then fell flat. I thought the Enchancer was expensive but want to improve my baking. Now I think I had better not use it at all. It has some yeast in the Enchancer. Is this why my bread fell; I added the Enchancer that added more yeast? Should the Enchancer be used without the yeast in the recipe? Thanks
I’d try the recipe without the enhancer first. Then try some of the tips on this page if needed.
I’m not sure what to say about the enhancer. It has yeast in it? I’ve never heard of that.
I’ve used vital wheat gluten, but not an enhancer. I would think this recipe might be helped by vital wheat gluten, but I’m just not sure about the enhancer.
AFAIK, enhancer is simply vital wheat gluten with ascorbic acid (vitamin c) added. I could be wrong, but that’s what the yeast people are saying, so maybe they’re using a different product by the same name? A lot of that also happens in the brewing industry FWIW.
Up until last Christmas I was using bleached white flour (purchased at the grocery store)for baking bread in bread machine. Then an organic flour mill opened close and I have been purchasing my flour there. I am not very knowledgeable when it comes to flours and I would like some help in deciphering what I am using. I would contact the mill but with the pandemic they are working 24 hours a day. (they are usually very helpful) ok…so I am currently using High-Protein Bread Flour, milled from Glen, a hard Red spring wheat, freshly stone ground, finely-sifted flour (80% extraction). My question is am I using whole wheat flour and should be doing recipes for whole wheat bread as opposed to basic white? My confusion comes in with it all comes from wheat! Maybe I’m just not suppose to bake bread LOL Thanks in advance for you help. I am having the big valley issue and thought maybe I’m doing the wrong recipes! Never had the problem before using the organic mill bread.
Jan, I’m not sure either. If you’re reluctant to contact the flour mill, then I suggest trying the flour with a whole wheat recipe and see what happens. You could also try adding vital wheat glutenvital wheat gluten. That might help.
First Marsha – I joined a blog – then to find out your comment sections is so much more useful – thanks.
I’m trying for a “specialty” loaf of almond flour, KA white whole wheat and bread flour – all in equal portions. The first try did the big valley thing when using 1 cup almond and 2 of bread flour. A second try with the equal amounts of flours fell to about 2/3 of the typical bread flour rise of a 3 cup loaf (I know – too many changes). It is actually a very good tasting and texture loaf – a little dense, but really not too much. The “top” is very uneven, so I’m not too sure how big it got on the last rise (was gone). I was careful about adding more bread flour early so that it made a nice ball – maybe a little wet still though. BTW, I also added a tbsp of vital gluten on the second try. I’d like to make this work somehow as we really like the taste and eventually want to add roasted, sliced almonds before the bake. Any suggestions for my next try that might have the best results from what I’ve described? Thanks again
Mark
Great question! The thing about almond flour is that it doesn’t contain gluten. And that’s what “regular” bread needs to rise. That’s why you’re having such a hard time.
I’ve experimented a little with non-gluten flours, but I never had any luck. It’s just an entirely different type of bread.
Sorry, I couldn’t be more help.
No problem. I have been somewhat successful on the next try:
One cup each of KA WWW, white, and almond flour – leveled and not sifted
1 tbsp vital gluten
one cup of water – warmed along with the bread maker pan
2 tbsp brown sugar
1-1/2 tsp salt
2 tbsp oil
1 tsp yeast (on top of flour)
BM settings of large loaf, medium crust and white bread (last try on whole wheat setting seemed too long).
Note – flour was combined, mixed and sifted, then remeasured as 3 total cups of sifted flour. As the rise ball developed, I had to add all the remaining mixed sifted flour to get the ball looking correct.
The final loaf had a decent rise but not like regular white. The top was wavy, but crowned. Resulted in a good texture, great flavor (IMO), however still need to try for a more uniform and expansive rise – and will go to light crust as for some reason, the crust is too dark and thick.
I was wondering what temperature your water should be if you are storing your flour, gluten, and yeast in the refrigerator. I use pretty hot water and then set the bread timer for an hour before starting. This used to work fine, but now I get sunken loaves. I’ve tried several things, but nothing seems to work.
Hi Sheila, my bread machine actually warms everything up for me. So I just put in tap water and don’t worry about the temperature.
However, I’ve heard that putting in lukewarm water (100 to 110 degrees Fahrenheit) is the right temperature for adding to yeast. If the water is 120 degrees it will begin to kill the yeast. Water at 140 degrees kills all of the yeast.
This is a reply to the post after it’s been up for quite a while. I’ve got a brand new Sunbeam 5891 and it is highly recommended even though the price is low. I’ve been getting the sunken valley bread so I tried a few things to remedy it. One of them was to add vital wheat gluten to the flour. My reasoning is that my flour has been sitting in my kitchen for approx. 2 years and I’ve read that old flour can lose gluten. This morning’s experiment greatly improved the rise of the bread and it has an amazing texture. But I still got the valley. I’ve been warming the liquid to between 100 – 110 degrees before putting it in the machine. I think for the next loaf I’ll make it 90 degrees and see if that makes a difference. Thank you for this informative and helpful article!
I’m glad the article is helpful. If it were me, I think I’d toss the old flour and buy some new. I really hate to see something go to waste, but working with old ingredients doesn’t give the best results.
Thank you all! I’ve got a Zo and done about 15 loves. All sunken. I am grinding my own Kamut Flour. Found this post and cut back on the sugar & added some gluten. Perfect. Thank you
Thanks so much for writing! I’m glad the article helped.
I’m sloppy with my measurements and my bread usually turns out ok. That said, I do watch how much yeast I use. I find that when I first open a jar of yeast, the bread rises quicker than after a few weeks. So, I believe I should measure the amount of yeast specified in the recipe, but be prepared to increase the amount of yeast as the efficacy of the yeast decreases. I sometimes get the big valley likely because I just opened a new jar of yeast but measured the yeast as if I was using an old jar.
It would make me crazy to try and remember how old my yeast is. 🙂
I’d estimate that we buy yeast once a year or so. We buy it in bulk and then store it in the refrigerator. I don’t notice any change in the effectiveness in the yeast at all.
And I thought it was just me.
A few months back I opened a new jar of yeast – same brand and type I have always used. All of the recipes I have been using since I got my machine were now collapsing – some of them were practically comical looking. Nothing else had changed – same machine, same fresh flour, same measuring tools… Did I buy a batch of mutant yeast or something?
To fix things I took drastic measures, since doing little tweaks to the amount of yeast, salt or water one ingredient at a time wasn’t helping. Here’s what I learned when lost in The Valley of the Bread:
I reviewed tons of recipes. In general the recommended amount of yeast is no more than 1/2 teaspoon per 1 cup of flour. Some of the recipes were exceeding this by a lot. Bear this in mind as a rough guideline.
But you need yeast. Too little yeast and you end up baking bricks. Just cutting the yeast was only giving me a dense loaf that was still collapsing on top.
You also need to control the rise with salt. My new yeast seemed to be out of control so…
I did something drastic: For a two pound loaf I cut the yeast down by a generous 1/4 teaspoon (maybe closer to 1/2 teaspoon) AND increased the salt by 1/2 teaspoon. That fixed things.
I also became fastidious about measuring liquids. You MUST view a glass measuring cup at eye level! If you are looking down at the cup and it’s measuring line at all you will overfill it. (Optical illusions and bread making don’t mix.) Remove two tablespoons from the amount of liquid you measured for your recipe and only add those in, slowly and only an amount needed, if your dough ball is leaving a lot of dry ingredients in the corners of the pan. Too much water and you have more of a balloon than a dough ball.
I still don’t know what to make of this new jar of overzealous yeast. But if you are turning into a Valley Person try cutting the yeast AND increasing the salt at the same time. Measure your liquid exactly and resist temptation to add more liquid than necessary.
My husband bakes. Bread. Its always been beautiful bread. Its a whole meal loaf. Suddenly he is having problems . We have a morphy Richards bread maker to mix the bread because of a hand injury. He has changed none of the ingredients and although it’s still tastes the same it looks different . The top used to be well risen and rounded. Now it comes out of the oven the top surface is rough and uneven . He lets the machine do the dough for 30 mins, he then leaves it to rise. It takes ages and it did not before. Recipe is . 200 ml water slightly warm , 1 tablespoon dried milk powder, 1 tbs of olive oil, 2 tbs sugar , 300 grams bread flour made up of 150 grms whole wheat flour and same of white and 7 grms of Allinsons instant yeast. 3/4 teaspoon salt. Never had problems before. Please can you help as its driving him insane.
That is odd . . . and frustrating! I wonder if there’s a difference in the makeup one of your ingredients. Maybe they needed to use different suppliers because of the virus? Try using some of the tips on this page and see if they help.
Hi
I really need some help!
I’m try ing to make whole wheat bread. My bread rises and then falls down. sometimes as much as 4cm!
I tried a lot of changes such as cold water or decreasing the yeast or sugar. All leads to less up and then less down but the bread is always concave!
One time I turned the machine off when it was rised enough and turned it on again and started bake program, but the bread went down after about 10 minutes!
Is heat couses the dough to go down? Maybe the heat is too much!
Thanks
Thanks so much for writing!
I wouldn’t recommend turning the machine on and off. Let it run through the whole cycle.
Are you following the recipe? A lot of people like to experiment, and that’s fine. However, it’s always best to follow the recipe the first time that you make it.
Check out my article on vital wheat gluten. With a lot of wheat bread recipes, it’s the key to success.
Hope this helps!
I had dozens of misshapen loaves until I got a digital scale and made little adjustments until I got a repeatable properly shaped loave. I weigh the water as soon as it boils so it is always the same weight per gram and then cool it in the bread maker pan. Flour is far faster to weigh than measure and far more accurate. Even weigh the vital wheat gluten— 40 grams for most whole wheat recipes. The biggest culprit by far is too much water and too much yeast is a close second, but measuring everything in grams means that when you get it right it stays right. I have converted all my recipes to grams. The only problem is the birds dont get any rejects anymore.
I think I’m slowly moving to the digital scale camp. I’ve been experimenting and it’s pretty easy with the right scale and as you say, the results are great. Great for everyone except the birds that is. 🙂
Hi, my problem is with wheat breads. All my white breads are fine. But the whole wheats, not so much. When the heat comes on to bake the loaf immediately falls. Any recipe with whole wheat flour does it. Any with white flour is fine. I have made Raisin/Walnut, Cheddar/Beer, French, white sandwich, all fine. Only the whole wheats.
Any advice would welcome.
Most wheat bread recipes call for vital wheat gluten. It sounds like that’s what you’re missing.
I have some of that. Could you suggest a starting amount for a 1.5 lb loaf, 2 cups white bread flour and 2 cups whole wheat flour? Thank you.
But I may try your recipe for wheat bread tomorrow.
A little goes a long way. Try one tablespoon for every 2-3 cups of flour. Also, be sure to check on the dough to make sure it looks OK after a few minutes of kneading. Because of the vital wheat gluten your dough may need a little more water.
Thank you for the advice. Today I made wheat bread with the right amount of gluten flour to produce a very nice loaf. Success at last.
Please help! I’ve tried everything but can’t seem to fix the big valley. After multiple attempts everything seems to be going perfectly through the process and my raw bread rises beasutifully in the pan. As soon as it starts baking it looks fine but after about 5 minutes of heat it starts to cave and 15 minutes into the baking process it’s completely failed. I just tried another batch with 1/2 as much yeast as the recipe calls for and and extra 1/2 teaspoon of salt. Frustrated but not giving up yet! Thanks!
Steve, Have you ever had a recipe turn out right? If not you may want to try a different recipe. If that works, then you know that your machine and ingredients are fine.
I’ve also had some strange experiences with different water sources. To rule that out as a problem you may want to try a loaf of milk bread. It doesn’t have any water so if that recipe works then you know that the your water is OK.
If all of those things check out, just keep going changing just one or two things at a time. I don’t know how many tries it took me to get my potato bread recipe right. Hang in there.
I’ve had this happen withe past three loaves, I wondered first if it was caused by a draught, so re-sited b/m next I slightly decreased yeast as recommended , next bought new flour! The machine has been operating thrice weekly for about two years and am wondering if perhaps the heating element has gone pphwt.
Sadly, bread machine don’t last forever. In my case usually what happens is that the bread paddles no longer spin. That’s on my Zo. I imagine that different bread machines break in different ways.
Before you give up on your machine, you might try buying a bread mix. That will take care of any ingredient or measuring issues that may be occurring.
Bread machine yeast is quick rise yeast. There is regular yeast that is long acting.
It can actually vary by the brand of yeast. However in general fast acting yeast has smaller particles of yeast to allow for a faster rise.
I might have found my problem, but am not yet sure. The loaf shrunk almost by half! I use 2 TSB of honey for sweetening instead of sugar and I have been using 2 TSB of butter for the oil. The time before today it came out right and I had only used salad oil instead of the butter. Today the butter may be the culprit for another big valley. I dunno. But it doesn’t seem right that that I have to measure the water by the tsp which I have measured to be right at a cup and a quarter. I don’t fill the cups overflowing just very close to the top. And the flour is “all purpose” and right at 3 cups. I’m frustrated as I think only twice have I had it turn out right. Next time I will use the salad oil and find out if that give me the full sized loaf again or not. Any suggestions??
Wow! You’ve sure been working hard on getting this right. Keep making small changes and documenting your results.
In addition to that I’d try using bread flour instead of all purpose flour. Also, on the liquid you don’t need to measure it in a teaspoon at a time, but do make sure that you’re getting the proper amount. (A see-through pyrex measuring cup is best for measuring liquids.) You might also try slightly decreasing the liquid to see if that helps.
Don, Couple comments.
– Measuring cups. I have 3 different measuring cups, and none of them match, at 1 CUP of water. I have no idea which of the 3 cups is most accurate. And putting 2 or 3 cups of water from my 1 cup measuring cup into the 4 cup measuring cup does not match the markings either. ARGH !!!!! No wonder I was having problems.
So accurate or not, I selected one of the cups as my master to reference the other cups to. That leads to the next problem.
– Being a guy, I wanted a NON-messy, EASY and REPEATABLE way to measure flour.
Flour could be packed, scooped, or fluffed, and everything in between. And the 3 ways would give you 3 different amounts of flour, which is NOT good.
The NON-messy comes from watching my mother sift flour to make it even to measure … what a mess that was, flour all over the kitchen 🙁 OK not quite that bad but it was still messy.
So I got a digital kitchen scale, and I now measure my flour by weight. The weight of a cup of flour is printed on the flour bag. Measuring by weight eliminates the packed vs loose problem of measuring flour. X amount of flour, packed or loose, weighs the same.
The only problem, is converting what a recipe has as 1 cup to grams. I don’t know how the recipe writer measured their 1 cup.
– That leads back to #1 above.
I did some research on the internet, and found the weight for 1 cup of water (237 grams). So now I can measure water or milk by weight, rather than volume.
And the scale is more accurate than the measuring cup at the 2 cup level. With a measuring cup, I can barely see any change when adding 1 tablespoon of water. So with the measuring cup, I am close, but not accurate. That is probably why you are measuring water by the teaspoon.
Having said this, I am still a novice at using my bread machine. Which is why I am trying to make my measurements accurate and repeatable.
1litre of water weighs 1kg. To put it another way,1cup holds 250 mls so if you need 2 cups of water you need 500 mls or 500 grams if weighed.
Phil, this is inaccurate. The weight of a particular volume of water varies greatly depending upon it’s temperature. At boiling, a cup of water will only weigh .959 what it weighs at 70°F.
(1c Water = 236.59g @ 70°F
1c Water = 227.10g @ 190-212°F)
A similar thing happens close to freezing for a totally different reason. I weigh my ingredients, including water, and noticed the discrepancy. Then I learned that generally, water is usually measured by volume, NOT weight because of this.
1 cup = 236 ml, not 250ml
That is the problem with US measurements for other countries. 1 US cup = 236ml but an Imperial cup is 250. That was why my loaves kept sinking. I was using Imp cups for these US recipes. Realised my mistake and now my loaves come out fine
Twice now my older Cusinard bread machine has produced a big valley loaf off honey wheat flour bread. Any suggestions? I read everyone’s comments but still not sure what to do. Should I try the rapid yeast and setting?
Does this always happen or just with this recipe?
My receipe has worked for 4 different bread makers. 1and 1/4 cups of very hot tap water, 1 tablespoon of white sugar, 2 tablespoons of cold butter from fridge, 3/4 teaspoon salt, 3 cups flour and 1 teaspoon of bread yeast. Make a little hole in flour for the yeast.
Thanks for sharing your recipe!
I have an older “Nutritionist” machine that I inherited some time ago. Finally started using it about 2 months ago with great success using the recipes in the small book that came with it. Those used rapid rise yeast. The last two loaves I used recipes calling for just active yeast with a longer process and have had the Big Valley. I live in Florida and we have had a lot of rain lately. My wonderment is, do you think that the increased humidity may have been a contributing fact? Next one I will decrease the water slightly. Hopefully that will work. Also, do you have any recommendations on the newer machines that are on the market now?
Hi Shelbie, Thanks so much for writing. Yes I think that the increased humidity is the problem with your Big Valley. Decreasing the liquid slightly is the thing to do. If that doesn’t help you can also decrease the yeast slightly. (In addition to the humidity to adding water to the air, it makes the yeast work stronger and faster.
I’ve always used Zojirushi machines. I love ’em. I make all our bread and the machines last for a long time. I also love the horizontal layout of the bread pan. My current machine is a BB-PAC20 Home Bakery Virtuoso.
Anybody ever used coconut flour successfully?
Yes, I’ve used 1/4 cup of coconut flour along with my organic flour. It makes a very tasty loaf.
When using a readymix pkt of bread mix everything included 500 grams packet 300 water do I set my manchineel on large or small loaf size.i done my 1st loaf on small size and it came out just a lump in the bottom
The loaf size shouldn’t affect how the bread turns out to that degree. Check your bread machine manual to see what ingredients to add to the machine first. Also, I wonder if the mix was old.
Hello! OK so, my bread JUST started having a valley….I have not changed anything in my recipe it’s from a bread machine cook book, it’s just a country white bread, and it always worked then the last 3 loafs for some reason started caving… I am going to try and decrease the yeast a little and see if that helps then go from their. But do you have any idea why it would just now start to cave when I have done nothing different?
That does sound strange. Something like that happened to me once and the issue was the water. I’m on a community well and the well water got a “treatment”. Could it be something like that?
I am having the same thing happen, and the only change I’ve made is that I’ve gone from the individual packets of yeast to the jar of yeast, so when I add it, it’s been in the refrigerator. I’m wondering if this is causing my issue. It just started with my last three loaves.
Candy,
I was told/read to let the cold yeast warm up.
I take my yeast out of the freezer, measure what I need, then sit it by the window to warm up in the sunlight.
Then I go assemble the rest of my things.
This gives the yeast time to warm up to room temp.
I struggled with this problem in a Zojirushi for some months, but have solved it. I think that all the advice to cut back on the factors that promote rising are misleading, because they merely produce a smaller, denser loaf. The heart of the problem is the structure: in a traditionally made loaf, the dough is periodically punched down and folded during the rising phase, and is shaped before the final rise. If you look at a slice from the middle of such a loaf, you will see that the air is trapped fairly evenly in elongated concentric layers. The bread machine cannot structure the dough like this, so larger, more uneven pockets develop, which then burst through during expansion at the beginning of the bake, causing the loaf to deflate. This is particularly evident with the twin-paddle machine, because of the voids between the two dough lumps over the paddles. The remedy is to take out the dough just after the final mix, remove the paddles, then fold and shape the loaf before putting it back in the pan for a final rise and bake. The machine manufacturers do not give this advice, because it rather detracts from the convenience of the process (the promise of a fresh loaf ready in time for breakfast), but I hope that they are working on a clever design to solve the problem automatically.
Thank you so much for this @Steven! This has been my suspicion as well. Since I”m working without gluten, I’m happy for some of the heavy work to be done by the machine, but if it’s going to cause “valley” tops, then I’d rather have a nice bread and take it out to shape it.
Steven, you’re right!
i posted i thought it was my water temperature, but it was the first time i didn’t reshape the loaf and take the paddle out.
the air pockets you described are exactly what happened to my bread.
so glad you posted this. ?
D.C. at what point do you remove the paddles?
Another tip that I recently heard of is to use water that is just room temperature, not warm, because that may cause the yeast to activate too soon. I was using quite warm water and always had the ‘big valley’. Then I tried with slightly cool water/room temp, just as it comes out of the tap, and the bread was perfect – no valley. Hope this helps!
Thanks for the tip!
Hi Meesha. Tjis is a reply after 2 years. Was wondering what is the ambient temperature at which you are using room temp water? Here the temp is 35C and humid. Can one use normal temp water instead of fridge water?
Hi Sanjeev, This is a great question! Where I live it’s usually around 72F (22C) in the house. My Zo heats things (like water and butter) up before it starts mixing. So I don’t add cold water, but just room temperature water.
But it’s a preheat cycle and that’s not an issue for you.
I’ve seen some instructions for machines without preheat cycles to heat the water to 80F(26.6C). So that’s the minimum temperature needed. But can the water be too hot? Yes! At about 120F (48.8C) active dry yeast starts to die.
To make a long story short, 35C should be just fine. 🙂
i’ve never had a problem with my bread falling, UNTIL, i put the water in at 110, instead of my usual 90. the bread machine recommends 80, but i read up to 120 is ok. i normally go with 90, didn’t correct it and the loaf fell dramatically.
still tastes fine though.
Hi Marsha,
My bread does tend to lose it’s crown and come out flat, but it’s not a typical rise-then-fall valley scenario. The loaves (all kinds, from light white sandwich to multi-grain to raisin, suffer from an uneven texture. They’re more dense/heavy at the bottom of a slice and very light, even floppy sometimes, at the top. I want to be right between the two, texture-wise. Have you ever seen anything like this?
I live in Tampa and bake 1.5 lb loaves in a Zo Virtuoso (PAC20).
Interesting. I have not seen that before. Do you ever use the dough setting? I’m wondering how your dough turns out.
Hi,
I need some help here, please. My favorite bread machine recipe, Dill Onion, is just delicious and rises just fine. What happens is the sides (not the top) cave in. (I don’t think this is what youall are talking about re the ‘big valley’.). This does not effect the taste but it’s just frustrating not to be able to correct it. Any help would be greatly appreciated!!
L. Barker
Interesting! I haven’t had this happen to me, but I’ve heard about hourglass loaves of bread. It’s a tricky problem to solve. One thing that you might try is using a different flour. Try for one with slightly less gluten. If you’re adding an improver, like vital wheat gluten, try adding a little less. Are you baking the bread in the oven or in the bread machine? If you’re using the oven you might try cooking it at a slightly higher temperature or leaving it in for a little bit longer.
Dear Marsha
My bread dough during needing remains in one corner though it get uniform kneading afterwards. Does it mean less water? As I also face issue with falling on top. Can you please advice
I’d work on the issue of the sunken bread first. Maybe then the issue of dry ingredients in the pan will sort itself out. Try the ideas on this page for the sunken top issue.
Hi Janet, It sounds like you’re on the right track. Some recipes are worse than others. It took me quite awhile to get the potato bread recipe just right.
I am new to breadmaker-ing and am fighting the big valley. By the way, it makes me feel better to label it with a humorous term. Thanks for that! I decreased the water by a tablespoon and had little change; so I maintained that same water measurement and decreased the yeast by 1/4 tsp. I’ll try another 1/4 tsp. yeast decrease next time since I still have the sunken top. It’s not terrible, but I’d like to master this. Any encouragement or other suggestions for going forward are appreciated. FYI I’m starting with an Oster breadmaker…low end, I know.
Hi Marsha, thanks for all the info! Going to try your sour milk bread this afternoon.
My understanding is the Big Valley is usually caused by too much, or too rapid of a rise. The expanding CO2 from the yeast overwhelms the glutens ability to stretch (rise) and contain it. Note most all of your solutions are aimed at slowing yeast activity. Limiting food (sugar, qty/quality of yeast) or increasing salt which inhibits yeast or the quality (gluten) of the flour. One other thing I have tried with success in addition to those mentioned is adding, or adding more gluten. A couple teaspoons is usually enough for a 1.5# loaf.
David, thanks for the great tip!!
To a slice of “big valley” bread:
Add carrot strip whiskers, a cinnamon dot nose, and cinnamon shading inside the “ears” to make kitty cat toast.
When life gives you lemons….
I love this idea!! Thanks so much for sharing!